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[QC Ready 2/3] Kangaskhan
- Thread starter Halcyon.
- Start date
Ok. So I'm new....Very new(like this is my first post new). And as such I am obviously not QC. But I've seen how awesome and was getting ready to start breeding my 31/31/31/x/31/31 Jolly Garchomp for a good Kanga, and was looking for common move pools and set ups for him, when I found this thread.
I've seen a lot of discussion about Crunch and where it should be placed, but my question is, was Bite not considered at all? Yes it seems kinda gimmicky, but when combined with Parental Bond the chance of Flinch jumps form 30% to 60% as far as my understanding goes, and how the game actually calculates that probability. So no your not going to OHKO or 2HKO a Gengar or Ageislash outside of critical hits, but your effectively increasing your bulk by giving yourself a high probability of denying your opponent.
I'm mostly just interested in hearing what the rest of the community has to say and less that this get actually considered. Just bringing up a different method or stratigm that might be viable
I've seen a lot of discussion about Crunch and where it should be placed, but my question is, was Bite not considered at all? Yes it seems kinda gimmicky, but when combined with Parental Bond the chance of Flinch jumps form 30% to 60% as far as my understanding goes, and how the game actually calculates that probability. So no your not going to OHKO or 2HKO a Gengar or Ageislash outside of critical hits, but your effectively increasing your bulk by giving yourself a high probability of denying your opponent.
I'm mostly just interested in hearing what the rest of the community has to say and less that this get actually considered. Just bringing up a different method or stratigm that might be viable
The flinch chance is actually 51% (1 - 0.7^2). The only thing I can see myself trying to flinch to death with Bite is Skarm, but as you said, I'd miss out on the 2HKO on Aegislash. It's probably better to take care of checks before hand instead of relying on flinch hax.
Yea, you're definitely right about that probability, wasn't thinking of the actually proper math at the time. I think my thought process is a bit different from most as I tend to think "What would do the most good(read versitile) the most often", instead of thinking of counters against common checks. But as you say, if someone is going to use that check against me, it's probably better to be able to get rid of it.
Alright, I changed all the sets to have Crunch>Earthquake; the reason being this: Crunch hits more of Kangaskhan's counters, and, in my experience, I have been more thankful that I was carrying Crunch than I have with Earthquake. Hitting Trevenant, Gourgeist, and Sub Disable Gengar super effectively, and Skarmory for neutral damage is more important in my opinion than hitting Aegislash for super effective damage. This is especially true since Sucker Punch already 2HKOs Aegislash (OHKO at +2, just like EQ), and doesn't get the Attack drop from King's Shield (not sure if PS updated this, but I have tested it in game). Literally the only thing you miss out on hitting is Ferrothorn, but that already does a number to you anyway, so I don't think that's such a big deal. Anyway, I want QC's input on this.
I totally agree with this and have been advocating Crunch over Earthquake to anybody who will listen. I often hear the redundancy argument, with Sucker Punch, but each attack offers specific advantages that don't overlap.
If you see a Ferrothorn in team viewer and fail to double switch, you deserve to lose.
I just wanted to mention this as it hasnt been mentioned yet: Choosing Frustration over Return will in most cases (unless people see this coming) limit a Imposter Ditto to 3 Moves when it transforms into Mega-Kanga. I remember this being a common technique in balanced hackmons where Imposter Blissey was everywhere. Might be a minor change but could come in handy when kanga's strongest move is unusable
I'd recommend slashing it with Return, as they're functionally the same move, and because it adds an element of counterplay.
Just a quick nitpick, but since Steel no longer resists Dark, Crunch actually does hit Aegislash super effectively. Unless Earthquake has other specific uses outside of hitting Aegislash (which might be the case), it might be good to drop it altogether.
Guys... Other than Sableye/Mega Banette, does M-Kang really HAVE a counter? I mean, depending on the last move, it can literally beat everything else. I'm starting to think it's a little too good.
And those aren't even really counters, just checks.
Honestly only a nitpick, but Sableye doesn't get hit like the other Ghosts and can pretty safely switch in even if the Kanga has Crunch. From my experience Sableye and Skarmory are the two most reliable counters.
At +2 Crunch out-damages roost on skarm, so the best it can do is whirlwind and then if skarmory never finds an opportunity to roost, you're screwed the second time around. That really isn't a counter. And even if Sableye or Skarmory really do counter it, no balanced pokemon would limit your options to such a ridiculous extent. All sweepers need to have teammates to deal many similar and even assimilar pokemon that completely stop it, in order to pull of a mid to late game clean-up. Mega Kangaskhan only has to worry about a handful of very specific, certain pokemon to sweep.
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I run Rocky Helmet on my defensive Skarm, and it helps, but you're right.
Sableye has been the best counter by far and deserves a special mention in analysis. It can safely switch into the common Fake-Out or Power-Up Punch on Kanga's first turn, then burn it with priority and ruin Kanga. It doesn't fear switching into a Crunch much at all, actually it fears EQ more.
I have already mentioned Sableye, but I will not be giving it any more of a mention than it already has. Yes, it is among the best checks to Mega Kangaskhan, but that is all it is: a check. I like to think of it as being similar to Rotom-W in terms of Azumarill. Rotom-W is certainly a check to Azumarill; it can switch in on a Water attack and burn it without any issue. However, it cannot switch in on Play Rough more than once, and is forced to heal itself if it does. The same could be said of Sableye with Mega Kangaskhan. It gets 2HKOed by Earthquake, which means it cannot switch in more than once, and although it can burn Mega Kangaskhan, there is nothing to stop it from switching out every time Sableye comes in, slowly wearing it down until it can no longer switch into Mega Kangaskhan at all. As I said before, it is probably the best check, but Gourgeist, Skarmory, and Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn are also great checks. As far as I see it, though, Mega Kangaskhan has no counters. So I will not be mentioning it more than it already has been.
Priority Recover would like a word with you. Sableye can burn Kanga and stall it to death with Recover.
Sableye must choose between Recover stalling and burning Mega Kangaskhan. It cannot do both in the same turn. There in nothing to stop Mega Kangaskhan from switching into a special attacker after EQing on the switch. This will force Sableye out, meaning it can no longer safely switch into Mega Kangaskhan. Believe me, I have dealt with many Sableye this way. Again, not saying it isn't capable to checking Kangaskhan, but no more capable than Skarmory or other solid checks.
EDIT: Again, I would like to reiterate that I have already mentioned Sableye, so it's not like it's missing from the analysis, I just don't think it deserves a special mention.
Hey halcyon! Nice write-up for the next suspect *wink wink* lol
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I really feel like Jolly Kangaskhan has more of a merit over Adamant Kangaskhan.
With its base 125 Attack, access to PuP and ability to hit twice, Adamant is just overkill.
Jolly has its merit in being able to outspeed certain threats most notably a Jolly Lucario before it Mega Evos. If one runs Adamant than Substitute should be slashed into the set.
I mean unless there are some critical KOs that Jolly misses out on then by all means please post them. But honestly, considering the fact Kangaskhan is a sweeper, the likely scenario is that it will be brought in mid-late game where defensive Pokemon have been weakened to some extent.
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I really feel like Jolly Kangaskhan has more of a merit over Adamant Kangaskhan.
With its base 125 Attack, access to PuP and ability to hit twice, Adamant is just overkill.
Jolly has its merit in being able to outspeed certain threats most notably a Jolly Lucario before it Mega Evos. If one runs Adamant than Substitute should be slashed into the set.
I mean unless there are some critical KOs that Jolly misses out on then by all means please post them. But honestly, considering the fact Kangaskhan is a sweeper, the likely scenario is that it will be brought in mid-late game where defensive Pokemon have been weakened to some extent.
Jolly can't OHKO Hippowdon
Alright, I'm just going to post some calcs because you are not the first person to suggest this. There are two main reasons that I am against making Jolly the primary slash. The first is that you miss out on some key OHKOs on defensive Pokemon, and the second is that the Pokemon you outspeed with Mega Kangaskhan are trivial.
Ok, so if you run a Jolly nature, here are some of the differences in damage you'll be doing:
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 312-369 (74.2 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 328-387 (83.2 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And here are some crucial 2HKOs you miss:
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 162-192 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 144-171 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
Here's the problem I have with that: What are you giving up these KOs for? A situational "outspeeding Mega Lucario before it evolves." Not only that, but this is only relevant to those running EQ, as Crunch Mega Kanga can't OHKO Lucario without a boost anyway. For those running Crunch, you also miss out on 2HKOing Gourgeist (most of the time) and Skarmory, the latter of which is HUGE. The other reason to run Jolly is for other Kangaskhan, but I don't see how that's any better than speed creeping, especially since you miss key KOs as I mentioned above.
Anyway, sorry if this seemed harsh, I didn't mean it to. But that's my reasoning behind Adamant>Jolly. If QC disagrees, I will talk about switching it. Otherwise, I think this is how it's going to stay.
Ok, so something that I wanted to try out today has proven to be really cool and I wanted QCs opinion on it. I tried a Sub Focus Punch set and got some pretty great results. It makes it easier do do large amounts of damage to Skarmory on the switch, actually forcing it into a lose/lose situation. Focus Punch can 2HKO it with Stealth Rock (or even a tiny bit of prior damage, not hard to pull off against Skarmory). So if you Focus Punch on the switch, you put Skarm is a bad spot. If it Roosts, you now hit it down to Sturdy (because it's now super effective), or it can Whirlwind, but since FPunch has a higher priority than Whirlwind, you'll hit it first and KO. So I want to see what people think about this.
Also, I think I might remove Double Edge. It's not really all that useful, and compromises its bulk. Thoughts?
Also, I think I might remove Double Edge. It's not really all that useful, and compromises its bulk. Thoughts?
Yeah, it's pretty clear that Mega Khan has no counters, Jesus effin Christ. From an optimistic standpoint, great idea, that sound very nice because when isn't forcing your enemy into a lose/lose situation incredible? Although, I'm not a QC member, so I guess I have no real voice or influential opinion.