[QC Ready 2/3] Kangaskhan

McGrrr

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Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Early Bird
EVs: 252 HP / ? SDef / ? Def / ? Spd
Careful / Impish / Jolly Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Crunch
- Sleep Talk
- Rest

So I heard that Seismic Toss hits for 200 damage. EVs are flexible depending on which defense you want to specialize in (Mega Gengar Focus Blast is always a 2HKO though) and which speed tier you want to beat.
 
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AccidentalGreed

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Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Early Bird
EVs: 252 HP / ? SDef / ? Def / ? Spd
Careful / Impish Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Crunch
- Sleep Talk
- Rest

So I heard that Seismic Toss hits for 200 damage. EVs are flexible depending on which defense you want to specialize in (Mega Gengar Focus Blast is always a 2HKO though) and which speed tier you want to beat.
Ahh. This would have been a completely interesting set I would be interested in testing out for the preview, but for now we'll have to waive it off because Seismic Toss is unavailable at the moment.
 
I'm also going to support the notion of adding Crunch on the main set. Earthquake isnt really that necessary with the number of ghost types running around and only offers to hit Aegislash without fearing King's Shield and Ferrothorn hitting without dealing with Iron Barbs. While on the other hand,you can't really do much to SubDisable Gengar / WoW Gengar, Gourgeist or Trevenant. Sure your matchup with Aegislash and Ferrothorn is slightly worse but it does have its upside and deserves a slash.
 

truedrew

Banned deucer.
Hey so I have been using this set with extreme efficiency:
Kangaskhan-Mega
Ability: Parental Bond
Item: Kangashkanite
EV's:
252+speed
252attack
4hp
Or
252hp and 252+attack
Moves:
Substitute
Return
Focus Punch
Crunch/sucker punch/rock slide
The only factor of this set is that it can come in on a Pokemon which usually it can scare off and sub-up while mega-evolving.
And since almost always Gengar switches in if a team has it then it is in a dangerous situation as it has to decide whether to break the substitute or whether to get killed by the crunch. Focus Punch is here solely to demolish steel types and deals chunks of damage to Skarmory also takes a huge amount of damage and has to decide whether or not to roost and die or get killed by the crunch. Add some stealth rocks and then it is an absolute nightmare. Substitute also helps against status and allows Kangaskhan to set up on Rotom-W as it is most likely to will-o-wisp it. Lastly this moveset can use a Wish passing cleric with access to a status removing move on the off chance someone does status you and because substitute + hazards if present can be pretty taxing.
Couldn't upload replays due to the server restart.

Hope this is of any value:D
 

McGrrr

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0- SpA Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 60-71 (92.3 - 109.23%) -- 56.25% chance to break Substitute
0- SpA Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 48 SpD Ferrothorn: 160-192 (45.45 - 54.54%)
0- SpA Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress: 284-336 (80.22 - 94.91%)
0- SpA Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 126-150 (37.72 - 44.91%)
0- SpA Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Avalugg: 172-204 (43.65 - 51.77%)
0- SpA Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 224-268 (65.3 - 78.13%)
0- SpA Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 244 SpD Mega Scizor: 152-180 (44.18 - 52.32%)

Halve for baby's damage. Bypassing Iron Barbs and Rocky Helmet is pretty great too. I think Fire Blast should be mentioned somewhere.

Edit: updated damage calcs because Showdown calculator still has Fire Blast at 120 base power. This means that it definitely loses some appeal, especially because the first hit no longer always breaks Gengar's Substitute. 4 EVs raises the chance to 62.5%, and 12 raises it further to 68.75%.
 
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Rocky helmet garchomp or ferrothorn should be mentioned as checks/counters. Really rocky helmet in General but especially those two, as a contact move from kanga does 58?% to itself. It sounds gimmicky, but my rocky helmet chomp is my main way of dealing with it. Also will o wisp gengar destroys it once it mega evolves. The fact that I'm using things like this shows how ridiculous mega kanga is
 
Don't know if it is still being discussed (Regarding Mega Gengar and when it subs); but if Khan is faced with a Subbed mega gar, Gengar loses the ability to dodge EQ from Levitate. If you're running Earthquake on your Khan, the first EQ will break the substitute, while the second deals hefty damage, and if you have a +2 in from before, then it will most likely KO.
 
Hmmm...Adamant Mega Kangaskhan already outspeeds Adamant Lucario, and regular Kangaskhan speed ties with it. Without Adamant, you lose out on some pretty significant KOs (the most significant of which that I found was the OHKO on Hippowdon at +2, and the 2HKO on Aegilsash at +0 using Bulldoze), so I'm not totally convinced that Jolly should be the main slash. I'm not completely opposed to slashing it after Adamant, but simply outspeeding Lucario, Haxorus, and Hydreigon in normal forme isn't enough in my eyes, especially since Pokémon below base 100 Speed tend to run neutral natures.
Adamant should definitely be slashed first in my opinion, though there are some advantages of running Jolly. You already mentioned Hydreigon, Haxorus and Lucario. What I'd like to add is offensive Gliscor (very rarely used), opposing Mega-Kangaskhan, since Kangaskhan is one of the few offensive Pokémon that can actually live a +2 Sucker Punch without resisting it, even after Stealth Rocks. Mega-Charizard X and Mega-Charizard Y can outspeed and OHKO you without going down to a sucker punch, though if you're at +2 and have Stealth Rocks down there is no chance of them living it. Mega-Guardevoir and Mega-Medicham although I've only encountered them only once or twice, are also a thing. Mega-Garchomp is one of the best checks to Adamant Mega-Kangaskhan in my opinion. It can outspeed and hurt it with double Rough Skin before Mega-evolving and has great bulk for an offensive Pokémon after. It always outspeeds Adamant Mega-Kangskhan if it is Jolly. In general, speed tieing with other base 100's can prove to be extremely useful, as for example you won't have to predict around Roost Volcarona or Dragon Dance Salamence with your Sucker Punch. Kyurem and Hihidaruma are two Pokémon you very rarely encounter, but they do have a spot on hail and sun teams respectively.

Rocky helmet garchomp or ferrothorn should be mentioned as checks/counters. Really rocky helmet in General but especially those two, as a contact move from kanga does 58?% to itself. It sounds gimmicky, but my rocky helmet chomp is my main way of dealing with it. Also will o wisp gengar destroys it once it mega evolves. The fact that I'm using things like this shows how ridiculous mega kanga is
I disagree with Rocky-Helmet Garchomp, as it just gets wrecked by Earthquake. If you are using Mega-Kangaskhan you'll probably be sending it out very late in the game to get off a sweep, meaning you're already aware of your opponents sets, especially because Rocky Helmet Garchomp is more of a early- and midgame pivot.

+1 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 182-215 (50.83 - 60.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Unboosted Earthquake is an easy 2HKO and you take zero damage since it doesn't make contact. If Chomp chooses to run bulk then it will either have to lower it's speed or attack stat, meaning it will take on Mega-Kangaskhan worse than it did before. It is also highly unlikely that Garchomp won't have taken prior damage. Hazards and stray weak physical moves will definitely be wearing it down to where it cannot switch into Mega-Kangaskhan anymore.

Ferrothorn, on the other hand is just a straight up counter unless you are running Fire Punch or it is severely weakened. Unlike Garchomp though, Ferrothorn has recovery in Leech Seed and potentially Protect.

+3 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Bulldoze vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 121-143 (34.37 - 40.62%) -- 99.51% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 201-237 (57.1 - 67.32%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Only Adamant Mega-Kangaskhan after a boost will be able to beat Ferrothorn if it is still healthy. You cannot boost on Ferrothorn either because the residual damage will absolutely destroy your life.
 
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Jolly should be slashed imo. I mean the power difference from Adamant to Jolly isn't critical from my experience. +1 or +2 Kanga still demolishes almost everything. Usually Adamant Kanga overkills things, so I never really found myself wishing I was Adamant. The Speed is just useful in general and you rely less on Sucker Punch to pick off things that were otherwise faster than you.
 
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Super Mario Bro

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Jolly should be slashed imo. I mean the power difference from Adamant to Jolly isn't critical from my experience. +1 or +2 Kanga still demolishes almost everything. Usually Adamant Kanga overkills things, so I never really found myself wishing I was Adamant. The Speed is just useful in general and you rely less on Sucker Punch to pick off things that were otherwise faster than you.
Not to mention, it lets Kangaskhan outpace opposing Adamant Kangaskhan, which can be pretty crucial at times.
 
Not to mention, it lets Kangaskhan outpace opposing Adamant Kangaskhan, which can be pretty crucial at times.
Running Jolly to outspeed the Adamant version of the Pokemon is not an argument that should ever be used to justify a nature in analyses, js. But yeah, I agree with Jolly being slashed.
 

Super Mario Bro

All we ever look for
Running Jolly to outspeed the Adamant version of the Pokemon is not an argument that should ever be used to justify a nature in analyses, js. But yeah, I agree with Jolly being slashed.
Well, it's also for tying other Jolly Kangaskhan, fwiw. I believe speed ties were mentioned in analyses in the past.

Also, let's be honest here; that's the only reason anyone would want to run Jolly on him.
 
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Adamant should definitely be slashed first in my opinion, though there are some advantages of running Jolly. You already mentioned Hydreigon, Haxorus and Lucario. What I'd like to add is offensive Gliscor (very rarely used), opposing Mega-Kangaskhan, since Kangaskhan is one of the few offensive Pokémon that can actually live a +2 Sucker Punch without resisting it, even after Stealth Rocks. Mega-Charizard X and Mega-Charizard Y can outspeed and OHKO you without going down to a sucker punch, though if you're at +2 and have Stealth Rocks down there is no chance of them living it. Mega-Guardevoir and Mega-Medicham although I've only encountered them only once or twice, are also a thing. Mega-Garchomp is one of the best checks to Adamant Mega-Kangaskhan in my opinion. It can outspeed and hurt it with double Rough Skin before Mega-evolving and has great bulk for an offensive Pokémon after. It always outspeeds Adamant Mega-Kangskhan if it is Jolly. In general, speed tieing with other base 100's can prove to be extremely useful, as for example you won't have to predict around Roost Volcarona or Dragon Dance Salamence with your Sucker Punch. Kyurem and Hihidaruma are two Pokémon you very rarely encounter, but they do have a spot on hail and sun teams respectively.



I disagree with Rocky-Helmet Garchomp, as it just gets wrecked by Earthquake. If you are using Mega-Kangaskhan you'll probably be sending it out very late in the game to get off a sweep, meaning you're already aware of your opponents sets, especially because Rocky Helmet Garchomp is more of a early- and midgame pivot.

+1 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 182-215 (50.83 - 60.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Unboosted Earthquake is an easy 2HKO and you take zero damage since it doesn't make contact. If Chomp chooses to run bulk then it will either have to lower it's speed or attack stat, meaning it will take on Mega-Kangaskhan worse than it did before. It is also highly unlikely that Garchomp won't have taken prior damage. Hazards and stray weak physical moves will definitely be wearing it down to where it cannot switch into Mega-Kangaskhan anymore.

Ferrothorn, on the other hand is just a straight up counter unless you are running Fire Punch or it is severely weakened. Unlike Garchomp though, Ferrothorn has recovery in Leech Seed and potentially Protect.

+3 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Bulldoze vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 121-143 (34.37 - 40.62%) -- 99.51% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252+ Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 201-237 (57.1 - 67.32%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Only Adamant Mega-Kangaskhan after a boost will be able to beat Ferrothorn if it is still healthy. You cannot boost on Ferrothorn either because the residual damage will absolutely destroy your life.
+2 Kangaskhan is simulated with +4, not +3.

2(+2) * 1.5 = 3(+4)
 
Well, it's also for tying other Jolly Kangaskhan, fwiw. I believe speed ties were mentioned in analyses in the past.

Also, let's be honest here; that's the only reason anyone would want to run Jolly on him.
They're not supposed to be really, and if that's the only reason, then Jolly should not be on the analysis. Jolly is useful for other things such as outspeed normal Jolly Lucario before it mega evolves and other such cases, which is why I feel it deserves a slash.
 
They're not supposed to be really, and if that's the only reason, then Jolly should not be on the analysis. Jolly is useful for other things such as outspeed normal Jolly Lucario before it mega evolves and other such cases, which is why I feel it deserves a slash.
why would it choose to not mega?
 

AccidentalGreed

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why would it choose to not mega?
Lucario's Speed does not change before and as it Mega Evolves, so using a Jolly nature on Kangaskhan allows it to use Earthquake or Power Up Punch against Lucario as it attempts to Mega Evolve and revenge kill with Close Combat or something.
 
I think Crunch is not in contention with Earthquake but rather with SuckerPunch (I would never run SuckerPunch + Crunch and no Earthquake). So I think it should be slashed with SuckerPunch instead of EQ.

Additionally I think Crunch is grossly underrated, especially with all the Substitute and Swords Dance type pokes that Kangaskhan likes (or even needs) to use SuckerPunch against. I have found Crunch to be far more useful on average. I prefer SuckerPunch on the revenge killer sets that are Adamant FakeOut + SuckerPunch.

set name: Setup Sweeper
move 1: Power-Up Punch
move 2: Return / Double Edge
move 3: Crunch / Sucker Punch
move 4: Earthquake


Running Jolly to outspeed the Adamant version of the Pokemon is not an argument that should ever be used to justify a nature in analyses
I could be entirely wrong but I gotta say that feels like a silly rule when you're talking about pokemon that can OHK eachother. Sure you don't want an analysis to advocate running Jolly Hippowdon to outspeed other Hippowdon, but I sure as heck want to run Jolly Garchomp to at least tie all the other Garchomp.
 
I think Crunch is not in contention with Earthquake but rather with SuckerPunch (I would never run SuckerPunch + Crunch and no Earthquake). So I think it should be slashed with SuckerPunch instead of EQ. I could be entirely wrong but I gotta say that feels like a silly rule when you're talking about pokemon that can OHK eachother. Sure you don't want an analysis to advocate running Jolly Hippowdon to outspeed other Hippowdon, but I sure as heck want to run Jolly Garchomp to at least tie all the other Garchomp.
No, Sucker Punch is MANDATORY. You do not need EQ. Crunch + Power Up Punch hits almost everything you are hitting with EQ. It is not necessary. And you may feel that it's silly, but there is no point running a Jolly Nature JUST to Speed tie. Garchomp ran Jolly for several other reasons, such as outspeeding positive Base 100s, etc.
 

Halcyon.

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I just want to update this because a lot of people have posted since I last did. Here's a summary of what I'm doing:

1. Yes I will add Jolly and Crunch to the sets, my Gourgeist got wrecked by a Kangaskhan with Crunch the other day and I was very sad.

2. No to Fire Blast. I would rather just use Fire Punch because it cannot miss and can be boosted by Power-Up Punch. Base 60 Special Attack just sin't doing it for me.

3. Crunch will go in as a slash to EQ, not Sucker Punch. Agreeing with SIU completely here.

4. Will add Rocky Helmet Chomp and Ferrothorn to the list of Checks because taking 50% from one turn of attacking is hilarious.
 
The only reason you run Earthquake is to hit things that resist or are immune to Return. Off the top of my head these are Scizor, Aegislash, Lucario, Genesect, Magnezone, Ferrothorn, Ttar, Tyrantrum, Jellicent, Chandelure. The only moves that should replace it are moves that also do this job (Fire Punch, Drain Punch being the two I most commonly see).

The only reason you run Crunch is to hit the things trying to Sub or SD or Status you while you fail SuckerPunch. If you think SuckerPunch is the better option then that's fine (but I assure you it's not mandatory as I am above 2.1k without it).

If Crunch is in the Earthquake slot then things that you are meant to have no trouble with like Aegislash are suddenly huge problems. I am certain that if you do want to run Crunch I would much rather lose the priority utility than the ability to handle things like Aegislash and regular Lucario (ie Lucario that didn't get a chance to turn Mega so far in the match).

** Adamant 252 MegaKang vs Lucario (pre-megatransform) **
Crunch 33 - 39.5%
Sucker Punch 33 - 39.5%
Return 63.3 - 75%
Power-Up Punch 67.2 - 80%
Earthquake 151.6 - 179.3%​

These type of scenarios where you want Earthquake are way more common than me wanting the SuckerPunch priority. (I also prefer Jolly over Adamant but that's a far more debatable issue). That is why I would slash Crunch with SuckerPunch, instead of slashing Crunch with EQ.
 
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Sorry Ranevski, but aside from Gengar, Trevenant and Gourgeist, what other Pokemon do you use Crunch for that EQ/Sucker Punch/Return/Power Up Punch can't cover?
 

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2. No to Fire Blast. I would rather just use Fire Punch because it cannot miss and can be boosted by Power-Up Punch. Base 60 Special Attack just sin't doing it for me.
For what it's worth, Fire Punch isn't released right now, which I think is the whole point of a mention of Fire Blast somewhere on the analysis. No, it's not the best option in most cases, but with Parental Bond, it hits harder than you might expect despite Kangaskhan's mediocre Special Attack. It also lets you take on Ferro much more reliably, as has already been stated. Even with a Jolly/Adamant nature:

Minus SpA Nature - 0- SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 210-252 (59.6 - 71.5%)

Neutral SpA Nature - 0 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 234-282 (66.4 - 80.1%)


No, it's not OHKOing it, but you can take it out after some prior damage without taking massive Iron Barbs (and potentially Rocky Helmet) recoil.

Some other interesting calcs:

Neutral SpA nature - 0 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 156-186 (41.7 - 49.7%)

Neutral SpA nature - 0 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 210-249 (62.8 - 74.5%)

Minus SpA nature - 0- SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 189-225 (56.5 - 67.3%)


Neutral SpA nature - 0 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aggron: 189-225 (54.9 - 65.4%)

vs. Earthquake which does not 2HKO. Against 252 HP / 252 SpDef Impish Mega Aggron, you outdamage with Fire Blast by a fraction of a percent, but you aren't losing anything by using Fire Blast against it to find out what spread it's running.

With all of that out of the way, no, Fire Blast isn't this amazing option that lets Mega Kangaskhan beat all of its checks and counters without creating more checks and counters for itself, but it does further its wallbreaking capabilities against some Pokemon that could otherwise 1. wall it and 2. be difficult for the rest of your team to break. That said, I think it could be mentioned somewhere that a set with a Naive nature and Fire Blast can be used to allow Kangaskhan to beat certain threats much more easily. It might not be able to sweep quite as well with Fire Blast over Earthquake or Crunch, but it's definitely still going to do major damage. Not a while lot wants to take boosted Return/Sucker Punch without taking massive damage from Fire Blast.

You sure this isn't Uber?
It's currently being suspected on PO, but it is not banned or being suspected on Smogon.

Sorry Ranevski, but aside from Gengar, Trevenant and Gourgeist, what other Pokemon do you use Crunch for that EQ/Sucker Punch/Return/Power Up Punch can't cover?
That's primarily it, but SubDisable (non-Mega) Gengar, Gourgeist, and Trevenant are among the greatest counters to Kangaskhan out there. Crunch allows Kangaskhan to bypass these counters in exchange for some other checks and counters (primarily things like Mega Tyranitar, who doesn't care much about a Power-Up Punch and can smack Kangaskhan around a bit, and Mawile off the top of my head).
 

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