Double Battle Metagame.

[Mysterious Man]

So I was pretty bored and just wandering around the strategy dex's, when I stumbled across Chatot. I've seen quite a few videos of it being destructive with Nasty Plot, but its usually its low-ish speed that hindered it. So I started thinking of ways of getting around it without forcing Agility or Tailwind onto it. Here's what I came up with:

Starts with Chatot and Shiftry
Chatot @ Focus Sash
252 Sp Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Hp
Keen Eye / Modest Nature
Nasty Plot
Hyper Voice
Heat Wave
Protect

Shiftry @ Salac Berry
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Hp
Early Bird / Jolly Nature
Fake Out
Fling
Seed Bomb
Explosion

It starts with Shiftry's Fake Out as Chatot Nasty Plots. Then Chatot attacks when Shiftry flings it's Salac Berry to Chatot to increase its speed. Seed Bomb is for things like Relicanth that resists both of Chatot's moves. And last it explodes while Chatot protects to bring in:

Spinda @ Petaya Berry
252 Hp / 160 Def / 96 Sp Def
Own Tempo / Calm Nature
Fling
Recycle
Skill Swap
Teeter Dance

Spinda is really purely for lolz although making Chatot even more deadly with Sp Atk boosts, and also it's one of the few that can learn Fling + Recycle. Another bonus is Teeter Dance, which works well assuming I can Skill Swap with Chatot.

This is all speculation as I have no access to VGC or PBR, and I have too much free time. I do see there are many things that can go wrong with this strategy, like priority moves, or even Flinging Chatot when it survived an enemy's move with Focus Sash. But do critique please :]

 

[M. Rock]

After many battles on Pokemon Online, it seems that weather is very popular in Doubles. The slower auto-weather lead is the one that wins the weather war, and this makes it look like the Iron Ball would be a popular held item. So does anyone here think that the Iron Ball would be a popular held item on leads like Groudon, Kyogre, Abomasnow, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon? Like, how common do you think the Iron Ball is in Doubles weather teams?
I figure I'd get opinions, beacuse for me it's a tough call. Those leads almost always end up being sweepers of some kind, and the speed loss would seem like a massive drawback.

 

[Airfoil]

Like, how common do you think the Iron Ball is in Doubles weather teams?

Flingball Groudon is on top. KOing Mewtwo and guaranteeing weather up, and it isn't burdened all battle like Ogre. And if the enemy has a TR team, you don't have to Fling. It's somewhat common in VGC (what I was going to use).

 

[M. Rock]

Wait, wouldn't Flingball Tyranitar be slower, and more powerful? I mean, with the Iron Ball, doesn't Fling become a Dark physical STAB with 130 Base Power?

 

[Airfoil]

Wait, wouldn't Flingball Tyranitar be slower, and more powerful? I mean, with the Iron Ball, doesn't Fling become a Dark physical STAB with 130 Base Power?

Yes, but Groudon has higher attack, more bulk, and more Pokemon that can really abuse the sun. SS is the least used in the VGC this year b/c Stall really isn't very easy to use in the Doubles b/c double teaming, and even less viable in VGC b/c Ubers hit very hard. Kyogre can bring down everything that benefits from SS (albiet dented by Chomp, both Ogre/Palkia w/ Ice Beam/Spacial Rend depending on your resist berry), and SS doesn't provide much in attacking options, not powering any attacks and only really benefiting Sand Veil. Boosts Sp Defense, but that doesn't make T-Tar/Chomp hit any harder.

 

[M. Rock]

Well, SS is out, and Kyogre and Groudon will no doubt be all over the place. If not for the weather, then for the fact that they mess up opposing weather teams and are generally awesome pokemon. Hail probably wouldn't be that common either, seeing as it's an Ice-type sandstorm with a few less benefits, and doesn't have a wide range of pokemon types that benefit from it, as opposed to the other effects.

 

[Acklow]

I think that Swaggering Pidgeot in a Doubles match would be interesting. You get 50% Evasion boost plus you get that +2 Atk boost. Though this is a very risky combination...

 

[DDRMaster]

I think that Swaggering Pidgeot in a Doubles match would be interesting. You get 50% Evasion boost plus you get that +2 Atk boost. Though this is a very risky combination...

Why would you want to give yourself a 50% chance to be useless for a turn and attack yourself? I'd much rather use Swagger on Purugly since Own Tempo prevents the confusion. Also, Fake Out will help you get it off.

 

[Airfoil]

Well, SS is out, and Kyogre and Groudon will no doubt be all over the place. If not for the weather, then for the fact that they mess up opposing weather teams and are generally awesome pokemon. Hail probably wouldn't be that common either, seeing as it's an Ice-type sandstorm with a few less benefits, and doesn't have a wide range of pokemon types that benefit from it, as opposed to the other effects.

Hail is actually fairly common. Dialga + Mewtwo + Abomasnow abuse Blizzard w/ through the roof Sp Attacking stats and a beast attack; 120BP, never misses do to hail, and has pretty good coverage being an Ice attack....SS lacks any offensive enhancements which is why it is rare. Sun + Rain have great abilities/attacks that really utilize the rain/sun, while Hail has Blizzard.

Why would you want to give yourself a 50% chance to be useless for a turn and attack yourself? I'd much rather use Swagger on Purugly since Own Tempo prevents the confusion. Also, Fake Out will help you get it off.

Tangled Feet is just too risky an ability to really utilize.....lol, Spinda can do that too!


Now that I think about it, Smeargle will be just as enormous a threat as ZapChomp, spamming Dark Void. As such, Lum Berry will probably increase in usage....

 

[Farewell]

Technically, there is Weather Ball for Sandstorm, and both Lugia and Ho-oh learn it. Weatherball Rock is basically the Special version of Stone Edge, and it can be used to hit opposing Ho-oh, Lugia, Zapdos, etc.


Groudon: Iron ball

EQ
Rock Slide
Protect
Dragon Claw/ Fling


Each 4th move has its advantages: Rayquaza, Garchomp, Palkia, Salamence, and Kingdra / Vs. Giratina/-o, Lugia, Lati@s, Mew/two


Cresselia: Lum Berry
252 HP / 252 Def/ 4 SpD
-Spe, + SpD

Trick Room
Helping Hand
Gravity
Lunar Dance- To get ____ in safely, and Heal teammate


Trick Room first, as Groudon Protects.
2nd- Use Gravity, which will go after (due to Trick Room) Groudon's Initial attack (likely Earthquake) meaning Cresselia won't be hit by it. Although, you could make Cresselia faster in Trick Room if you give Groudon some Speed EVs, give or Cresselia Macho Brace.
3rd- Cresselia uses Helping Hand as Groudon attacks, where no Pokemon is Immune to Earthquake. Cresselia may faint at this point, and then the next Pokemon is sent in- Shedinja.

*Due to Cresselia being fast under the Trick Room, it may be best for Cresselia to use Helping Hand 2nd turn, and Gravity 3rd turn, since Cresselia can stay Immune to EQ longer, and can have Gravity last longer by using it the turn it is predicted to faint. Additionally, Gravity can be skipped to ensure Ho-oh can come in after Trick Room wears off and sweep with the Scarf.

4th- Shedinja comes in to Swords Dance while Groudon uses Earthquake and nothing is Immune besides Shedinja!.
5th- Shedinja attacks, Groudon uses Earthquake (since Gravity is up), and both hit the foe. Groudon likely dies.



Shedinja: Focus Sash

X-Scissor/ Bug Bite / U-turn *Steal a resist berry / (i.e. switch to Heatran on a Predicted Fire move)
Sucker Punch
Swords Dance/U-turn
Protect

Shedinja helps against Rain Teams, can switch (fast under Trick Room) to a better teammate, and can hit fast with Sucker Punch if Trick Room wears off.


Ho-oh- Choice Scarf/Life Orb

Sacred Fire
Punishment
Earthquake
Brave Bird

Choice Band can be used if Cresselia doesn't use Gravity, as you would send Ho-oh, not Shedinja in when Cresselia dies to abuse Sunlight. Ho-Oh could then Sweep under Sunlight, and Trick Room.
----
last 2 options-

Heatran: Choice Specs / Flame Plate

Eruption / Magma Storm
Protect
Explosion
Dragon Pulse

Can work great when under Trick Room, especially with Choice Specs and Flash Fire (which both Bronzong, and Shedinja can lure Fire moves).


Trick Room

Bronzong

Skill Swap/Gravity
Trick Room
Light Screen
Explosion

 

[WaffleT]

Sleeping death

I'll start by saying that this is not a competitive strategy as it can be torn apart by pretty much any power team. That being said this pair can be quite fun and tends to do pretty well against teams that need to set up as they only get to use one of their pokemon each turn.

Breloom @ Choice Scarf (Poison Heal)
252 HP 252 Defence
Careful
~ Spore
~ Focus Punch
~ Seed Bomb
~ Stone Edge

The Breloom outspeeds with her choice scarf and puts to sleep what I deem as the greater threat, The sleeping pokemon will then lose their chance to attack but be woken up by hariyama at the end of my turn. Breloom will then be in a position to lull another pokemon to sleep. Breeloom will not be attacking so she just needs ev’s to survive as much as possible.

Hariyama @ Choice Band (Thick Fat)
252 Attack 252 HP
Brave
~ Wake Up slap
~ Payback
~ Poison Jab
~ Stone Edge

The key of this set is wake up slap. A powerful move against a sleeping pokemon and with Hariyama’s low speed he will certainly go after they have been immobilized for the turn ensuring they don’t get the chance to attack. Negitive speed nature to ensure that even slow pokemon go before it and that turn is wasted being sleep.

 

[DDRMaster]

Go with Jolly and max speed on that Breloom. It will have a hard time outspeeding fast Pokemon, even with a Choice Scarf, unless you max its speed. I don't think you should give Hariyama a Choice Band because that will force you to switch out if your opponent sends in a Ghost Pokemon while you're locked into Spore and Wake-Up Slap. Leftovers works well to give it more survivability, while Fist Plate and Muscle Band can allow it to hit harder.

That Cresselia seems like major Taunt bait to me, so you should consider giving it an attack, so you don't have to switch it out if it gets Taunted. Lunar Dance seems like a complete waste of a Cresselia, since all of your other Pokemon will be at full health, and you can just spam Psychic or Ice Beam until it dies. Also, Earthquake and Fire Punch gets perfect coverage under Gravity so you should consider using Fire Punch over Rock Slide. It will also hit a lot harder due to being powered up by the Sun.

 

[Farewell]

Thx! Ya, wasn't sure what else to give it.

Will switch. Also, Fire Punch is better, but Rock Slide hits both targets, and under Trick Room may flinch... but Fire Punch sounds okay.

Groudon: Iron ball
EQ
Fire Punch
Protect
Dragon Claw / Fling

Each 4th move has its advantages: Rayquaza, Garchomp, Palkia, Salamence, and Kingdra / Vs. Giratina/-o, Lugia, Lati@s, Mew/two

Cresselia: Lum Berry
252 HP / 252 Def/ 4 SpD
-Spe, + SpD

Trick Room
Helping Hand
Gravity
Ice Beam

Trick Room first, as Groudon Protects.
2nd - Use Gravity, which will go after (due to Trick Room) Groudon's Initial attack (likely Earthquake) meaning Cresselia won't be hit by it. Although, you could make Cresselia faster in Trick Room if you give Groudon some Speed EVs, give or Cresselia Macho Brace.
3rd - Cresselia uses Helping Hand as Groudon attacks, where no Pokemon is Immune to Earthquake. Cresselia may faint at this point, and then the next Pokemon is sent in- Shedinja.

*Due to Cresselia being fast under the Trick Room, it may be best for Cresselia to use Helping Hand 2nd turn, and Gravity 3rd turn, since Cresselia can stay Immune to EQ longer, and can have Gravity last longer by using it the turn it is predicted to faint. Additionally, Gravity can be skipped to ensure Ho-oh can come in after Trick Room wears off and sweep with the Scarf.

4th- Shedinja comes in to Swords Dance while Groudon uses Earthquake and nothing is Immune besides Shedinja!.
5th- Shedinja attacks, Groudon uses Earthquake (since Gravity is up), and both hit the foe. Groudon likely dies.


Shedinja: Focus Sash

X-Scissor / Bug Bite / U-turn *Steal a resist berry / (i.e. switch to Heatran on a Predicted Fire move)
Sucker Punch
Swords Dance/U-turn
Protect

Shedinja helps against Rain Teams, can switch (fast under Trick Room) to a better teammate, and can hit fast with Sucker Punch if Trick Room wears off.

Ho-oh- Choice Scarf/Life Orb

Sacred Fire
Punishment
Earthquake
Brave Bird

Choice Band can be used if Cresselia doesn't use Gravity, as you would send Ho-oh, not Shedinja in when Cresselia dies to abuse Sunlight. Ho-Oh could then Sweep under Sunlight, and Trick Room.
----
last 2 options-

Heatran: Choice Specs / Flame Plate

Eruption / Magma Storm
Protect
Explosion
Dragon Pulse

Can work great when under Trick Room, especially with Choice Specs and Flash Fire (which both Bronzong, and Shedinja can lure Fire moves).


Bronzong

Skill Swap/Gravity
Trick Room
Light Screen
Explosion

EQ Immunity, Trick Room, Gravity, works like a Steel Cresselia.

 

[Ryujin]

How viable's Stealth Rock in Double? It seems that in Double with more limited switching, the threat of ganging up on one Pokemon at any time, and a generally more offense-oriented style, it doesn't seem that practical even for the common suicide leads.

This came up a while ago when I was looking to create a lead of Zapdos/Swampert, with Swampert potentially being the rock man. I can see him maaaaybe pulling it off by taking two hits with the right opponents, using the rocks, and then getting back in later via Wish support. But that doesn't sound too practical and is asking to start off a battle with him severely hurt/dead.

 

[Airfoil]

How viable's Stealth Rock in Double? It seems that in Double with more limited switching, the threat of ganging up on one Pokemon at any time, and a generally more offense-oriented style, it doesn't seem that practical even for the common suicide leads.

This came up a while ago when I was looking to create a lead of Zapdos/Swampert, with Swampert potentially being the rock man. I can see him maaaaybe pulling it off by taking two hits with the right opponents, using the rocks, and then getting back in later via Wish support. But that doesn't sound too practical and is asking to start off a battle with him severely hurt/dead.

W/ enough Bulk, he should be able to survive being double teamed from most non-Grass attacks. SR in doubles isn't really worth it though....Mainly b/c, as you pointed out yourself, Doubles are very offensive and lack much switching. You can probably run it, though, in attempt to surprise Fire/Flying/Bug Pokemon ready to take advantage of a SR-less environment. It's just not worth sacrificing a Pokemon for.

 

[PhredLevi]

I've got a Quagsire in my mostly water and rain doubles team that seems to be really restricted by the lack of good Ground moves that aren't Earthquake. I don't want to use Earthquake because of my Toxicroak and Lanturn, but that seems to leave only Earth Power as an alternative.
Can Quagsire even make it as a special attacker, or should I at the very least go mixed.
Does Earth Power/Stone Edge/Recover/Substitute sound decent to you?

 

[Ryujin]

W/ enough Bulk, he should be able to survive being double teamed from most non-Grass attacks. SR in doubles isn't really worth it though....Mainly b/c, as you pointed out yourself, Doubles are very offensive and lack much switching. You can probably run it, though, in attempt to surprise Fire/Flying/Bug Pokemon ready to take advantage of a SR-less environment. It's just not worth sacrificing a Pokemon for.

The surprise factor would be kind of nice, yeah. Looking at the big picture, Zapdos and Swampert are probably not going to convince Fire/Flyers/Bugs to switch in anyway. So I'll look for a different fourth move for Swampert.

Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

 

[DDRMaster]

The surprise factor would be kind of nice, yeah. Looking at the big picture, Zapdos and Swampert are probably not going to convince Fire/Flyers/Bugs to switch in anyway. So I'll look for a different fourth move for Swampert.

Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

You could always go with Earthquake/Ice Beam or Blizzard/Surf or Waterfall/Protect to guard against Explosion. Rest+Chesto Berry could possibly work as well, as long as you don't run into a Grass Pokemon.

 

[PhredLevi]

Although I like that transform into your Shedinja idea.
I'd give the Shedinja Substitute so the transformed one would be even more annoying.

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

You know what I love doing? Making a Gallade flinch, having Steadfast raise its Speed, and then killing it off with Gyro Ball all in the same round. The first time I did it by accident, but I've found it to be very satisfying.

 

[soon]

Good Day people, pardon me if I wasn't allowed to ask question related to double battle. I had been thinking of this strategy but I cannot confirm how zoom lens will work in the complexity of double battles.
(I posted on the sticky simple question & simple answer, seems that the question is too difficult to qualify as a simple question)

Say in this situation:
Opponent: Claydol SPD: 250, Swarmpert SPD: 100
Me: Azumarill SPD: 80, Vaporeon SPD: 150

Zoom lens is attached to Vaporeon.

1.
Azumarill used Aqua-Jet, strike first.
Claydol used Rock Slide, Hit Both Azumarill & Vaporeon
Vaporeon used Muddy Water <- Will Muddy Water accuracy be boosted by Zoom lens?
Swarmpert used EarthQuake.


2. Consider this Situation again:
Azumarill used Aqua-Jet, strike first.
Claydol used Psychic, Hit Azumarill
Vaporeon used Muddy Water <- Will Muddy Water accuracy be boosted by Zoom lens?
Swarmpert used EarthQuake.

3. Now consider Swarmpert is Jolly Nature, have a speed of 200.
Azumarill used Aqua-Jet, strike first.
Claydol used Psychic, Hit Azumarill
Swarmpert used HammerArm, hit Azumarilll
Vaporeon used Muddy Water <- Will Muddy Water accuracy be boosted by Zoom lens?

My views for case 1 & 2:
A: Claydol get boosted Muddy Water while Swarmpert does not.
B: Both get boosted Muddy Water as one of the target moved.
C: Both will not get boosted Muddy Water as not all target had moved.


Of course, case 3, I am pretty sure Zoom lens will activate even though vaporeon didn't receive any damage in that turn.

Anyone had researched on this? :naughty:

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

The answer is A. Muddy Water will have a higher accuracy against Claydol, but not Swampert if only Claydol has taken its turn. Also, it doesn't matter if Vaporeon's taken damage.

 

[Greyfeld]

I'm extremely green to competitive battling, period, and I have no way to test this team right now, so I'd love some criticism... albiet non-douchey criticism :P

Kingdra - Damp Rock
Swift Swim
-Rain Dance
-Surf
-Dragon Pulse
-Protect

Toxicroak - Leftovers
Dry Skin
-Substitute
-Fake Out
-Poison Jab
-Focus Punch

Swampert - Salac Berry
Torrent
-Protect
-Aqua Tail
-Dig
-Avalanche

Ludicolo - Leftovers
Drain Dish
-Substitute
-Ice Beam
-Grass Knot
-HP - Ground

Gengar - Choice Specs
Levitation
-Rain Dance
-Thunder
-Shadow Ball
-Focus Blast

Floatzel - Lietchi Berry
Swift Swim
-Rain Dance
-Roar
-Taunt
-Aqua Jet


On the first page of this thread, somebody mentioned a Kingdra/Toxicroak combo with Rain Dance and Surf. Oddly enough, I've been toying around with this idea for weeks, but hadn't really done much research on it until I saw that post. So, I took that and expanded on it.

Obviously, you start with Kingdra/Toxicroak. I stuck with Damp Rock so I don't have to refresh Rain Dance every 5 turns, while Leftovers adds additional regen on Toxicroak on top of the rain healing. Surf and Dragon Pulse are both STABed, and Protect deals with 1-shot threats like Explosion. Toxicroak runs Substitute, making it near impossible to kill him first, especially with Surf spam, Poison Jab STABs to deal with grass threats, and Focus Punch should have no problem hitting from behind Substitute. Fake Out was added to deal with faster match ups, especially anything with psychic attacks.

Beyond that, I know I'm running heavy on water pokemon, but I tried to cover that weakness with Swampert (anti-electric), and Ludicolo (grass/electric neutral). I'd like to point out that I have Dig instead of Earthquake on Swampert, because only Gengar has Levitate, and EQ damage would get cut due to being a spread attack anyway.

I can see Levitate Bronzong and Skarmory being issues, but since the team is a Rain Dance team, fire just isn't plausible. I'm hoping water attacks, being neutral damage, can overcome that weakness.

 

[Proboscidea]

You don't need to follow a theme or a specific strategy to do well. If you try to do one strategy, you'll need a lot of back up ones. All I do is keep 2 Skill Swappers on the team and start throwing around abilities. Keep track of where each ability is and your opponent will be so confused, they'll start hitting their own team, literally. Stealing Motor Drive works wonders.

 

[Airfoil]

You don't need to follow a theme or a specific strategy to do well. If you try to do one strategy, you'll need a lot of back up ones. All I do is keep 2 Skill Swappers on the team and start throwing around abilities. Keep track of where each ability is and your opponent will be so confused, they'll start hitting their own team, literally. Stealing Motor Drive works wonders.

lol, try that w/ Slaking. Pass it Motor Drive, Levitate, Water Absorb, etc. I saw someone pass it Unburden from their Drifblim, then they let it's HP get to Salac/Leichi range. Or a Sunny Day team, pass around Cherrim's Flower Gift or Chlorophyll to a Fire type to really benefit the sun.