Double Battle Metagame.

[PhredLevi]

I never imagined combining Safeguard with using Swagger on your own Pokemon.
It's quite brilliant in it's simplicity. You get the additional benefits of Safeguard, a free attack boost AND you can still swagger your opponent if you want.
The Double Battle combos I'm seeing on PBR random wifi have gotten a lot more sophisticated recently and all I've got is Surf + Water Absorb.
It's great. I'm getting so many ideas.

 

[Airfoil]

He's worried over Double Intimidate. But an Aggron that could come in off either Gliscor or Rotom would likely be quite welcome with the speed boost.

I'm not really worried about double Intimidate, it is just the reason I put Hyper Cutter over Sand Veil. Gliscor and Marrowak/Medicham (probably Marowak) are my only physical attackers.

That, and Gliscor is going to be leading a multitude of my battles, so not being crippled by Gyara + Mence is nice.

This is what I have so far....

- Tailwind + Coverage + Dragon/T-Tar counter

- Tailwind + Pure Support (also Aura Sphere for T-Tar, Air Slash for annoyance may be replaced by

for more speed)

- Sweeper (might be replaced by

for more speed)

- Tailwind + Double Powder (Stun Spore so I don't completely rely on Discharge, may be replaced by

for lols but more importantly, more speed)


Gliscor, Rotom-S, Togekiss, Butterfree and Protect make this team really annoying, but I haven't made anything yet but a few moves and some general EVs....Most Pokemon changes are for more speed.

 

[TMNSquirtle]

Double Battle Team Question

I'm Thinking of Running


Gengar @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Levitate
252 Atk / 252 Spd / 6 HP Jolly
~ Protect
~ Skill Swap
~ Explosion
~ Shadow Claw

+



Metagross @ Leftovers / Life Orb / Occa Berry
Clear Body
252 Atk / 152 HP / 104 Spd Adamant
~ Agility
~ Meteor Mash
~ Earthquake
~ Explosion

Then I'm Wondering Who The Best
VGC Legal Legendary I Should Run Along Side Kyogre, I Was Thinking Mewtwo or Palkia but idk

Any Additional Advice Appreciated

 

[TMNSquirtle]

Why do you say it's Difficult to pull off?

Double Battles Combo Gengar and Metagross re-borned into 4th Gen

Gengar @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Levitate
252 Atk / 252 Spd / 6 HP Jolly
~ Protect
~ Skill Swap
~ Explosion
~ Shadow Claw

+

Metagross @ Leftovers / Life Orb / Occa Berry
Clear Body
252 Atk / 152 HP / 104 Spd Adamant
~ Agility
~ Meteor Mash
~ Earthquake
~ Explosion

The point of these two is to pull off a double Explosion. If you want Metagross to do some major damage before Exploding make your Gengar skill swap it its Levitate Ability. The Occa berry here is an option seeing as how your only weakness will be Fire after the Skill Swap. This combo is very hard to pull off, but the payoffs are amazing.

 

[firecape]

Just a quick question/peice of information.

I think that physical dragon use will decline for the most part in the Double battle metagame, because of the fact that you cant choose what target outrage hits (out of the opponents of course). Anyone else have opinions on this?

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

Just a quick question/peice of information.

I think that physical dragon use will decline for the most part in the Double battle metagame, because of the fact that you cant choose what target outrage hits (out of the opponents of course). Anyone else have opinions on this?

It's a fact, Jack. Outrage is out. Dragon Claw's no joke, though.

 

[Colonel Darren]

It's a fact, Jack. Outrage is out. Dragon Claw's no joke, though.

Aye. Something stuck in Outrage on the wrong target would really screw your partner over. Especially if it's two Poke that can take an Outrage well and set up. (Like an Agiligross or the like.). Dragon Claw seems a lot more reliable, and can likely see some sets on things like Salamence revolve around it.

 

[Airfoil]

Double Intimidate + Dragon Claw being the only reliable physical dragon attack = drop in Physical Dragon. Gravity and TR will rise, while SR will also fall. Garchomp will stay were it is, as Zapchomp combo will make up for being stuck w/ dragon claw. Many NU Pokemon will rise to UU at least b/c there abilities/move pools support doubles more than singles.....Some Pokemon may even run Damp instead of Water Absorb.

I want to try using Water Sport/Mud Sport in doubles after my Tailwind team. lol, Zong w/ Levitate or Forre/Scizor in the rain while Water Sport is in affect would pretty well remove all it's weaknesses.

 

[Ice-Master]

A really nasty combo of Transforming into your own Shedinja could be horribly devistating, and just plain mean since you keep all of your Hp and still get the Wonder Guard ability

 

[connoisseur]

A really nasty combo of Transforming into your own Shedinja could be horribly devistating, and just plain mean since you keep all of your Hp and still get the Wonder Guard ability

This works and is an incredibly dickish strategy that will make people tear their hair out if they are unprepared. Watchout for heat wave and rockslide though.

 

[firecape]

not sure if this is mentioned before, so sorry if it is but:

Ludicolo @ Life orb
evs: depends on what threats it needs to outspeed and what evs it need to do this in rain.
moveset
-fake out
-surf
-grass knot
-ice beam

Kingdra @ focus sash
evs: same as ludicolo
-Rain dance
-surf
-dragon pulse
-protect

A straightford rain dance, with 2 double stab surfs while both team mates have 4x resists to water.

 

[Colonel Darren]

not sure if this is mentioned before, so sorry if it is but:

Ludicolo @ Life orb
evs: depends on what threats it needs to outspeed and what evs it need to do this in rain.
moveset
-fake out
-surf
-grass knot
-ice beam

Kingdra @ focus sash
evs: same as ludicolo
-Rain dance
-surf
-dragon pulse
-protect

A straightford rain dance, with 2 double stab surfs while both team mates have 4x resists to water.

Why the Focus Sash on the Kingdra? I would reccomend another item that could boost Kingdra's power or survivability. Most Kingdra are of decent bulk anyway that it likely would not be killed in one blow, especially if it sets up the rain and therefore outspeed next to anything.

 

[Ace Emerald]

A really nasty combo of Transforming into your own Shedinja could be horribly devistating, and just plain mean since you keep all of your Hp and still get the Wonder Guard ability

Shedinja still has crappy defences, you wouldn't be able to take too many hits, but you wouldn't die from stupid stuff like sandstorm.

 

[Antar]

A really nasty combo of Transforming into your own Shedinja could be horribly devistating, and just plain mean since you keep all of your Hp and still get the Wonder Guard ability

There's a really glorious Battle Video of this up somewhere... When I saw it I nearly went crazy. Although, I'm pretty sure in the end, the fakeNinja went down fairly easily (it used to be a Mew, IIRC).

 

[Baldafor]

What I am wondering while reading through these threads is why are Kyogre and Groudon left out? If we developed the doubles metagame for the Smogon community, we would start out with all pokemon being in standard play, and only after playtesting remove those deemed too powerful to a banlist.

 

[PhredLevi]

What I am wondering while reading through these threads is why are Kyogre and Groudon left out? If we developed the doubles metagame for the Smogon community, we would start out with all pokemon being in standard play, and only after playtesting remove those deemed too powerful to a banlist.

Kyogre seems to be going over pretty well at the VGC. That Water Spout really takes a bite out of the opposition.
And none of the collateral damage involved with Surf.

 

[Baldafor]

I think one of the best strategies I saw at the VGC this year was using multiple weather users on the same team. I saw Abomasnow, Kyogre and Rayquaza on the same team many times, which means you are definitely in control of what weather condition is out when you need it.

One thing I also noticed is that a lot of teams that were very successful required no setup turns on any of the pokemon for them to play their part. One turn of setup on one pokemon was often gamebreaking against the person setting up, even if it was a simple setup like Swagger on something slower with a berry.

 

[Airfoil]

I think one of the best strategies I saw at the VGC this year was using multiple weather users on the same team. I saw Abomasnow, Kyogre and Rayquaza on the same team many times, which means you are definitely in control of what weather condition is out when you need it.

One thing I also noticed is that a lot of teams that were very successful required no setup turns on any of the pokemon for them to play their part. One turn of setup on one pokemon was often gamebreaking against the person setting up, even if it was a simple setup like Swagger on something slower with a berry.

The VGC is blindingly fast paced. Some battles hit a minute and a half at most. Ubers doesn't help this, firing off well overpowered attacks, KOing other Pokemon very quickly.

BTW, I like running Palkia on a Sunny Day Team w/ Fire Blast and Thunder w/o Surf. It works great for an anti-weather team.


Stall and Defense will be very rare in doubles do to the obvious double teaming and faster pace.

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

What I am wondering while reading through these threads is why are Kyogre and Groudon left out? If we developed the doubles metagame for the Smogon community, we would start out with all pokemon being in standard play, and only after playtesting remove those deemed too powerful to a banlist.

Would we, now? Says who?

 

[DDRMaster]

Would we, now? Says who?

I would think we would allow the less broken ones like Garchomp and Deoxys-S and maybe Manaphy. Who knows, maybe they'll be OU since there isn't really time to set up SD/Tail Glow and entry hazards aren't useful. Of course combos like ZapChomp could keep them Uber and I doubt we'd test the more broken ones like Mewtwo and Ho-Oh until the metagame settles, if we test them at all. IMO, Kyogre and Groundon would be more broken then they are in Singles because it's easier to abuse weather.

 

[M. Rock]

Since this is a sort of half-RMT-half-discussion thread, I figure I'll post my team. Btw, despite this being my first post, I'm not a n00b. Anyway, here's the stuff. Read all things first, description of strategy is at end:

Kingdra @ Life Orb (Nickname: Tatsunoko)
Swift Swim
252 Atk/24 SpA/232 Spe
Adamant
-Waterfall
-Outrage
-Dragon Dance
-Draco Meteor

Kyogre @ Lum Berry (Nickname: Capcom)
Drizzle
4 Hp/252 SpA/252 Spe
Modest
-Protect
-Ice Beam
-Thunder
-Hydro Pump

Ludicolo @ Leftovers (Nickname: SNK)
Rain Dish
252 HP/40 Def/216 SpD
Calm
-Rain Dance
-Grass Knot
-Leech Seed
-Protect

Mewtwo @ Expert Belt (Nickname: Marvel)
Pressure
252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spe
Jolly
-Rain Dance
-Bulk Up
-Brick Break
-Ice Punch
The first four are the team I'm using for the upcoming VGC. Basic Rain team. Kingdra has DDance JUST IN CASE an opportunity arises to use it (but it's mostly filler). Kingdra's physical movepool sucks, so Outrage is its only physical STAB. I use it only in emergencies (like when both opponets wall Waterfall and/or he already used DMeteor), or when the opponent has only two guys left, none of which are steel-types. Him and Kyogre make a destructive duo, and have been through many a test. Ludicolo puts the rain back if need be, and is a menace even if given the opportunity to seed at least one poke. Mewtwo is fast to move first and put rain back, and balances the ratio of physical:special moves (sort of). He needs only one bulk up. However, if the attack is not super-effective, he still won't hit that hard.
So I wanted to replace him with a steel-type. I want to know would be better for this team: Metagross or Dialga? Dialga is better than Meta in almost every stat. However, Meta has more Atk, actually gets some benefit from the rain, and has a priority move to compensate for his poor speed. So, I ask you fellow Smoggers, WHO SHOULD I USE? No matter the choice, Rain Dance and Earthquake will be two of the moveslots.
Those are the only four I'm using. The next two are in for the sake of having a full team of six. I might use them in a friendly battle, especially this one:

Pikachu @ Light Ball (No nickname)
Static
EVs undecided (probably something to do w/ Spe and SpA)
Timid/Hasty
-Fake Out/Encore/Substitute/Protect
-Helping Hand
-Thunder
-Grass Knot
I'm undecisive on what to do in the first slot. Helping Hand is probably the last thing he'll do on his way out, so to speak. With Light Ball and the proper EVs, this rat can seriously hurt some top tier pokemon, especially w/Rain + Thunder. Why not use Pikachu for fun? It would be funny to see the look on my opponent's face when he kills something!

Zapdos @ Item Undecided (No nickname, probably)
Pressure
EVs undecided
Timid
-Rain Dance
-U-turn
-Thunderbolt
-Roost/Light Screen/Reflect
Why not? When this set is completed, I think it will help out the team pretty well.

So please rate, comment, critique, whatever. I just need help deciding between using Metagross or Dialga in the fourth slot (either one will be played physically, btw).

 

[PhredLevi]

Building my team, I realize that there really isn't a good physical single-targeting alternative to Earthquake.
My water team can absorb Surfs, but isn't really fond of Earthquakes.
So unless I want to use Dig (although I guess I could use Power Herb...), my Quagsire is currently using Earth Power.
Although I admit considerations like this are why I love double battles so much. Although it does affect my team building. Even my ostensibly single battle teams are still built to be "doubles ready".

 

[Acritter]

Wouldn't a combination of any moderately tanky Skill Swapper and Shedinja be absolutely brutal? Ghost only is weak to Dark and Ghost, and Psychic to Dark, Ghost, and Bug, making those types excellent. Possibly a double Skill Swap from Shedinja to Swapper to Spiritomb could be a game-ender if pulled off right. Last Pokemon is Sableye, because why not. Would that be at all viable, or just a little trick that can beat scrubs?

 

[zenzen~]

Wouldn't a combination of any moderately tanky Skill Swapper and Shedinja be absolutely brutal? Ghost only is weak to Dark and Ghost, and Psychic to Dark, Ghost, and Bug, making those types excellent. Possibly a double Skill Swap from Shedinja to Swapper to Spiritomb could be a game-ender if pulled off right. Last Pokemon is Sableye, because why not. Would that be at all viable, or just a little trick that can beat scrubs?

you can't skill swap wonder guard brah

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

Wouldn't a combination of any moderately tanky Skill Swapper and Shedinja be absolutely brutal?

When creating combos like this, it's always useful to check the Smogon StrategyDex.